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Announcement: Mikko Ellila blog in breach and to be disabled

Further to my earlier notes, and after several months of careful consideration and consultation I have now determined that in his advocacy of racialist (note: I do not use the term “racist”) views and policies, Mikko Ellilรค at his blog MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com isin breach of THINKER TO THINKERโ„ข policies and principles, and incompatible with Capitalist Ideals,and that I will be disabling his blog within seven days.

Some of the blogs and forums which have been following the Mikko Ellila issue …

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  1. Beach Girl

    Prodos, sorry to learn of this. Mikko has raised important issues and although certainly none of us agree with each other on every issue and there are many nuances within issues, the only way we will arrive at answers is to have open discussions. I do not speak the language of Finland and therefore am not familiar with Mikko’s postings to the degree that you are.

    We often get into “difficulty” – at least I do – when I speak in generalities. I have enjoyed the part of the discussion that I was able to follow. And I am sorry that it has been determined that Mikko has breached the principles.

    Obviously, I support capitalism and our representative republic in the US.

    Thank you for the announcement and for giving Mikko time to “save” his posts, et al. Thank you also for allowing the discussion to take place. I hope he will find another “home”. We have much to discuss in this “poliltically correct multicultural” paralysis we have created which in some cases is unhealthy for all citizens – a majority should not be able to ride rough-shod over any minority but by the same token, a minority must not be allowed to turn an entire culture on its head where the majority citizens are made to feel as though they are the “foreigners” in their own land and are placed in danger. I refer readers to a post by Sir Henry Morgan, Murder rates in Britain.

    We only have two means to address our international issues. Discussion is the first. If we cannot openly discuss issues within our respective nations, we will not be able to address them with reason internationally.

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    Good afternoon Beach Girl. Thanks for your comments.

    I welcome further discussion on this issue.

    I am also against “multiculturalism” – to the extent that it treats all customs and cultures as equally worthy or equally healthy for humanity and to the extent that it devalues such principles as individual rights, free trade, science and technology, pursuit of happiness, etc.

    But the racialist position is deep down dumb. It is moronic. It contributes nothing to the debate. Both racialists and racists seem to also be critical of multiculturalism. But the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

    I have thoroughly rebutted the racialist and the racist positions in my post titled:
    “Are Blacks genetically LOWER in intelligence and
    HIGHER in psychopathy than Whites?” @

    And regarding Mikko, I remind readers that he claimed the earlier English translation of his Finnish article was “awful” and “misleading”. That it was a “babelfish” translation.

    When he finally provided an authorised translation, we saw that he utterly misrepresented the facts.

    See for yourself:

    And with a bit of crude context-shifting he also claimed in the comments section @
    … that he was “merely” making “observations” and not advocating racialist based policies.

    From the outset I have stood by his right to free speech and of course still do. From the outset I gave Mikko every opportunity to come clean or to correct any misconceptions. I have invested a LOT of my precious time and energy in this matter.

    I have no sympathy whatsoever for his position or his deceptive practices or his “too clever by half” tricks or his general arrogance.

    Best Wishes.

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  3. Michael Sutcliffe

    Prodos, you’re back! I take it the USA treated you well?

    I don’t know if I agree with your position on this one. It’s your blog service and you can do what you want, fair enough. But if you’re really about promoting freedom I don’t know if this is the way to go about it. This issue isn’t going to go away just because you’ve removed Mikko’s blog. On the balance of probabilities it’s probably going to come to the fore in a big way within our lifetimes. I don’t think Mikko was arguing in the context of the KKK, as you have a alluded to with your racialist/racist differentiation. From what I could derive from the English language posts he was making a point about matters that are seriously affecting countries like France and The Netherlands. If we want to have these discussions heard in the context of reason and freedom then I don’t think bowing to a politically correct stance is the correct way to go about it, which is what it would appear to me that you have done. Mikko was in many ways promoting the concept of civilisation and civil society, and this allowed him to say some of the things he does, but civilisation and civil society is all about reason and freedom.

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  4. Mikko Ellil

    PRODOS Says:
    “I am also against

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    Thanks for you comments Michael.

    Prodos, you

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    Replying to Mikko:

    – – –
    Apparently you are going to delete my blog on Sat July 21st because you said today Sat July 14th that you will give me seven days

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  7. John Humphreys

    [PRODOS: The following comment has been copied to this page from http://prodos.thinkertothinker.com/?p=354]

    I disagree with this decision.

    I think Mikko is being disingenuous when he says his comments are just observations. They are clearly arguments for a restricted immigration policy. Personally, I disagree. I am pro-immigration.

    But I think it is inappropriately harsh and dogmatic to insist that somebody cannot be a capitalist if they are anti-immigration. To be a pure anarcho-capitalist you cannot be anti-immigration

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  8. Michael Sutcliffe

    It’s a good list, and I agree it’s pretty borderline.

    Prodos, I’m only a member of the LDP and not an office bearer so I am not in a position to argue this issue in the context of LDP policy. I also won’t do it because it may upset some other members who might feel it would tarnish the image of the party.

    Personally, if Mikka acknowledges the genius of a man of colour like Tom Sowell, agreeing that they are in every way aligned and belonging to civil society, and agreeing that people should always be considered as individuals then I would be happy to retain my association with him and not completely reject him as a bigot. Not saying that anyone else should, just that I’d be happy. I consider the freedom of speech issue probably more important, and there are some serious problems in the civilised world, or as you put it ‘legitimate concerns’ with integration and shared values eg France, UK which the civilised world is going to need to deal with.

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    Replying to John Humphreys

    I think it is inappropriately harsh and dogmatic to insist that somebody cannot be a capitalist if they are anti-immigration.

    I’m not aware of Mikko Ellila being “anti-immigration” as such.

    Also, my decision to disable his blog (as of next Saturday) is not due to him being anti-immigration.

    It’s due to his advocacy of race-based public policy.

    Holding personal preferences for or against any race is also irrelevant to the purity of capitalist ideas.

    An individual – as a citizen – can certainly have racial preferences in his personal or professional life and still be within a Capitalist framework.

    For instance, I might for whatever reason, prefer to employ Blacks or I might prefer to stay away from Greeks. These “racial” preferences may or may not be wise, but they don’t necessarily breach Capitalist principles.

    The problem would arise if I advocated government policies (i.e. coercion)based on some sort of racial criteria. That would be counter to Capitalist Ideals.

    My interpretation of Prodos

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  10. Michael Sutcliffe

    Is Islam compatible with Capitalism and freedom – or not?

    Does this mean you’d accept a blanket ban on Islamic immigration? I’m sure you agree that some interpretations of Islam are compatible with civil society, and that Muslims should be judged as individuals not as members of a religion. However, in a practical sense, it is reasonable that some places could implement a zero Islamic immigration policy in order to protect the citizens of that place.

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  11. PRODOS

    Replying to Michael Sutcliffe

    Prodos, I

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  12. PRODOS

    Replying to Michael Sutcliffe

    I’m sure you agree that some interpretations of Islam are compatible with civil society,

    Yes, the ones that aren’t based on the Koran or the Hadith. ๐Ÿ˜€

    and that Muslims should be judged as individuals not as members of a religion.

    That depends on how they “judge” themselves.

    And how they “judge” liberal democracy.

    However, in a practical sense, it is reasonable that some places could implement a zero Islamic immigration policy in order to protect the citizens of that place.

    What?! Why would anyone need to be “protected” from the “Religion of Peace”??!!


    Beddy-byes time for me.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Best Wishes.

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  13. Beach Girl

    Prodos, I have read your analysis and found it very throrough. On this:

    “The problem would arise if I advocated government policies (i.e. coercion)based on some sort of racial criteria. That would be counter to Capitalist Ideals.”

    In America we have been burdened under stiflying race-based policies since 1964 – the policies are called “affirmative action” and are institutionalized racism punishing white people today for “sins of the past.”

    We’ve been trying to get beyond the “slavery” which we abolished and lost over 500,000 Americans fighting each other in our “Civil War.” Today, anyone with a drop of non-white blood gets preferential treatment in hiring. Actually the employer gets “points” based on the number of women hired and the number of “minorities” hired.

    In my persoanl case, I am a woman (points) but I have advanced degrees and am relatively competent (- points). My admin assistant – woman, black American (++ points for the company). In America, our “affirmative action” government policies are so embedded as “entitlements” that the entire society is penalized. There are competent people across ethnicity and there are “sit on your bottom and let the other guy support you” folks.

    By the above definition, America is no longer a “capitalist” society. In America if you speak out against “affirmative action” quotas, you are called “racist.” These quotas are embedded within our university student acceptance programs and well-embedded within our working society. This “institutional racism” is not visible to the casual visitor.

    These “institutionalized, government policies” are stifling and conservative, capitalist bloggers write against these policies all of the time. Frankly, most of us don’t care what skin-color a person has or what their gender is – the defining characteristic is competence and the application of that ability. We are offended by the doors in hiring, like the bathroom doors of days gone by, that say “whites apply here”, “non-whites move to the head of the line.”

    Where I live a small business owner was threaten with a lawsuit if she didn’t hire a Spanish-speaking employee to interpret for all of the illegal Mexican customers who refused to learn English.

    I have gotten a bit “far afield” here but the issues are very complex and dangerous to the health of our society-at-large. Capitalism cannot succeed when only 1/2 of the working-age population works and competency is not rewarded but rather punished.

    The best, Beach Girl

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  14. PRODOS

    Good morning Beach Girl,

    In America we have been burdened under stiflying race-based policies since 1964 – the policies are called

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  15. Walter Haxton

    Taps is blowing for Mikko Ellila. He would not learn.

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  16. lot


    I’m sorry to see you resort to censorship. Doing so may whitewash your own hands but it really is not a durable solution to this “problem” of ours.

    — lot

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  17. Mikko Ellil

    PRODOS Says:

    July 14th, 2007 at 4:58 pm

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  18. PRODOS

    Replying to lot


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  19. Finnj

    This reply to “lot” by Prodos is truly excellent ๐Ÿ™‚ I of course understand why “lot” wants to call Prodos’s decision to sack Ellil

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  20. PRODOS

    Replying to Mikko Ellila


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  21. Mikko Ellil

    PRODOS Says:

    July 14th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
    Replying to Mikko:

    “I plan to disable MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com by July 21.”

    “I have no intention of blocking your access to the blog before next Saturday. If I did, I would have told you. If you require more than 7 days to do what you need to do, please let me know.”

    Since you’re talking about “disabling” my blog and “blocking my access to the blog” instead of deleting it, does this mean that the archived posts will remain on your server, even though I won’t be able to make any new posts?

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  22. Finnj

    Right on the spot ๐Ÿ™‚ It is clear that the ultra-nationalism and hostility to outgroup members Ellil

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  23. PRODOS

    Mikko Ellila asks …

    Since you

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  24. lot


    I can understand why you want to get rid of Ellil

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  25. PRODOS

    Thanks for your comments Finnj

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  26. Beach Girl

    Prodos, thank you for the interchange. “My genes made me do it!” That is work to achieve, spend long hours doing a job I loved, going to church, taking responsibility for my actions, failing when I didn’t measure up.

    Actually, you are correct, the Liberal White Guilt for success has a great deal to do with our current laws, that and the need for a constituency that can be bought, and has been. As a black lady who is a conservative told me, regarding politics, democrats are bought; republicans are taught. Her take on it.

    On the issue in Virginia Beach, have this from small article and word of mouth. I apologize but I do not have a link.

    Hope you enjoyed your visit to America. The success of the current issue is that a discussion is taking place. Thank you.

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  27. Finnj

    Prodos, as to your question: “Ultima thule” is the notion used of Scandinavia in the Antique. They also used this expression in the Middle Ages. So, as far as Ellill

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  28. IH

    Mr. Ellil

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  29. PRODOS

    Thanks for your comments lot

    I can understand why you want to get rid of Ellil

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  30. Finnj

    Prodos, your thorough and polite answer to “lot” is again right on the spot. ๐Ÿ™‚

    However, I think you should be aware that this guy is one of the most active anti-immigration bloggers in the Finnish language. I’m not sure if you have actually read those of his posts that are in English, but they contain lots of material that supports the same kind of a political agenda as Ellil

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  31. Finnj

    IH says: “Mr. Ellil

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  32. lot


    I am not trying to insult you intentionally. Nor do I grind my teeth while I write to you. I have no reason for doing that.

    You are exactly right when you say that I don’t know you very well. I only know these things: a) you run the TTT, b) you are a monstrously productive writer who propably writes faster than I read, c) you embrace capitalism and d) dislike racism.

    Actually, I will be deactivating MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com. I won

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  33. Valpas

    .. You cannot advocate racialism and advance liberty. They are mutually exclusive views.

    These are phenomena on a completely different levels. Racialism, as you put it, is based on scientific, very probably correct measurable facts on racial differences in humans. You cannot cross your fingers and hope that these differences just vanish in the thin air. Racialism is based in the world that is. On the other hand, liberty is a thing that ought to be. Liberty is an ideology to be advanced, not something that is based on physical measurable facts. When advancing and fighting for liberty, to be succesful, one has to take into account the measurable world; laws of physics, biology and even psychology.

    This is where, I think, Prodos and Mikko (and I) disagree. I gather that Prodos doesn’t think that racialist views are based, or even could based, on the physical reality, and that these views are no more than ideological nonsense that doesn’t go together very well with, or is even opposed to the liberal way of life. Mikko on the other hand thinks (just as I do) that the racial differences are something we have to live and deal with, something that needs to be given thought on if one wants to build a working liberal democracy.

    To put it short, Mikko has his arguments based on view that racial differences are real and something to be dealt with and Prodos doesn’t agree on this. This is a dead-end of the discussion, unless either Mikko or Prodos changes his positions on this one. Which, I guess, won’t happen.

    PS. I also think Mikko has a very crude way of delivering his point, which can sometimes turn against him. However, this is his style on every matter, not just the one concerning races. This should be considered when trying to decide whether or not Mikko really was inciting racial hatred mala fide .

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  34. Mikko Ellil

    Michael Sutcliffe:
    “Personally, if Mikko acknowledges the genius of a man of colour like Tom Sowell, agreeing that they are in every way aligned and belonging to civil society, and agreeing that people should always be considered as individuals then I would be happy to retain my association with him and not completely reject him as a bigot.”


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  35. PRODOS

    Good evening.

    Thanks to everyone for their comments.

    I haven’t had a chance to respond today, but will hopefully do so tomorrow.

    Best Wishes.

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  36. Finnj

    To Ellil

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  37. Finnj

    Mikko Ellil

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  38. lot


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  39. PRODOS

    Good evening.

    Below, is a copy of a recent, very interesting comment which Finnj

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  40. PRODOS

    Thanks Beach Girl for your comment (July 17)

    The “Liberal White Guilt” issue is interesting.

    Perhaps part of the problem we are seeing is being driven by:

    “White Guilt” versus “White Pride”.

    From my study of a number of prominent White Pride and White Supremacy forums, I observed that many of the better and well-intentioned racialists are what I’d call: “personal racialists”.

    These are individuals who don’t necessarily advocate racialist public policies but who are groping for some sort of explanation to the problems they see around them.

    Of even more significance: They are REACTING to the White Guilt industry.

    Perhaps a more accurate (although more ridiculous sounding) term for this “industry” would be the White White Guilt industry.

    These are racialist White Liberals who blame the White race (whatever that means) for what their (?) forefathers allegedly did to the Black race (whatever that means.)

    They now want me to pay you for what my great great grandfather did to your great great grandfather.

    Understandably, there is a great sense of injustice about being forced to wear such an irrantional racial/ancestoral guilt.

    There is a screaming back at these Merchants of Guilt: “No!! I will not wear this false shame! No!! I am not guilty! No!! On the contrary, I am PROUD of being White!”

    “White” is now no longer merely an unchosen, unachieved genetic attribute. It is the color of an Army. It is the color of the Resistance.

    At this level there is some legitimacy to the notion of “White Pride”.

    … An unchosen genetic attribute (being White) is singled out.
    … Those who carry this genetic attribute (Whites) are punished – either by having unearned historic guilt put upon them, or more tangibly by being sidelined by some sort of racial quota system.
    … Some of these Whites rightly resent this and are angered by it.
    … They look around and see that – even if it’s true that “Whites” at some level promoted slavery, there is an enormous amount of splendid achievement amongst so-called Whites.
    … The perceived injustice is doubled. Actually it’s trebled, because:

    1. a non-essential, non-volitional attribute is being singled out,
    2. current carriers of this attribute are persecuted for what past carriers of this attribute supposedly did,
    3. current and past carriers of this attribute who created splendid values benefiting all humankind (regardless of race) are ignored or even derided.

    And let’s add a 4th item: Those ancestors who carried this attribute (i.e. being White) are being judged by a modern day standard which did not prevail at the time and on actions for which they were not uniquely guilty of anyway! For instance, Whites (or Europeans) were certainly not the only Race (or Culture) to maintain slavery.

    Okay, let’s add a 5th item: The barraged White Prider may also be aware that it was “Whites” who fought intellectually, physically, morally with every fibre of their being to END slavery.

    Within this swirling, turbulent whirlpool of injustices and hypocrisy, there are some who perhaps grasp at some force that will stand against and repel the Serpents of Shame.

    They feel about, and grasp the White Pride movement.

    It “resembles” a life line. They wish to believe that it is!

    But, alas, it is in REALITY a viper.

    From the Serpent to the Viper they’ve gone!

    That is their tragic fate.

    That is the fate of the fuzzy-brained!

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  41. PRODOS

    Replying to lot (July 19th, 2007) …

    PRODOS: Actually, I will be deactivating MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com. I won

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  42. Finnj

    Thank you once again Prodos for your patience with “lot” and thanks also to “lot” for a reasonable response to my comment. One thing still bothers me, though: you (“lot”) say that you oppose immigration on cultural, not racial, grounds. But as we’ve seen in the case of USA for example, there are lots of possibilities for free enterprise and different areas of interaction for various cultures to exist side by side, and this indeed makes the USA the place it is. I think you can safely say that it’s a great success story.

    It is of course self evident that there’s always some problems & conflicts when human beings interact, even those who share a culture (for instance, most homicides in Finland are committed by drunken male Finns and the victims are other drunken male Finns), but history has clearly shown that within liberal capitalist democracy, with a decent judiciary system, based on individual human rights, people of all colours can live together and make great art, innovations and economical growth. These kind of societies prosper.

    Now, you can always find some bad apples from every apple-box in a grocery store, but most of them are OK. You can’t blame the whole box for the few rotten ones. You get my drift?

    On the other hand, when we look at the totalitarian, nationalistic societies, we see grey monotony, cultural backwardness and stunted economy. Take a look at Putin’s Russia and it’s vulgar nationalism with secret police and street militia. How about that for a dream society? As Prodos already mentioned, racialism (I would use this word interchangeably with nationalism) and liberty are mutually exclusive, and in my opinion there’s a wealth of historical evidence that liberal, democratic and capitalist societies bloom and prosper; especially those that have a high amount of human biodiversity and freedom for interaction, enterprise & innovation.

    Now, I don’t deny the fact that there are many kinds of problems in this human biodiversity too, especially with different religions and ideologies fighting each other, but on the other hand I don’t see how we, living in a liberal society, could somehow close those we don’t – for some reason or another – like outside, throw away the key and let them handle their own problems. How inhumane would this be and how cruel would it seem to every humane person with a conscience? This would make a world with some nations that resemble prisons.

    When I’ve read the postings of anti-immigrationists on different blogs and forums, I’ve always wondered what they would think if someone said those things about them that they say about the Muslims and Africans. In these blogs and forums you can find and endless array of derogatory words like “parasites” and “predators”, denoting Africans and people of Middle-Eastern origin.

    I’m of course well-aware that there are also many Muslims and Africans who actually say the same kind of insulting things about whites, but are you (I mean anti-immigrationists in general) really sure that the world would be a better place if the borders were closed with high fences, watchtowers and heavily armed soldiers? Have you ever thought about this thing through? Africa as a great concentration camp?

    Instead of nightmarish pseudo-solutions, we can try to promote democracy, capitalism and individual liberty all around the globe, and discuss and interact rationally with other cultures. You know, we could try to help those who are behind us, instead of insulting them, looking down at them, or closing them behind our borders. We can’t of course bring every African to Europe, Australia or USA, but we can help them to build their economy and society within Africa. They are human beings too, you know, not “parasites” or “predators”.

    Those Africans and Middle-Easteners who live in the West send a lot of money to their relatives at home who didn’t make it to the West. Without this help, many people would suffer and die. Do you want them to suffer and die by denying the immigration and the possibility of help from their relatives in the West?

    To summarise my view: the problems nationalism/anti-immigrationism cause are much more severe on a global scale than the salvation (hallucinatory, in my honest opinion) it promises. History has shown over and over again that nationalism leads to conflict, war and destruction. Nationalistic societies are very short-lived and brutal. You may of course claim that I’m using a “slippery slope” fallacy here, but I don’t think so.

    Indeed, to me, Mikko Ellil

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  43. lot

    Holy cow, you guys write long comments. Last 2 comments contain a total of 7 A4-pages worth of text.

    Unfortunately I am taking a trip to countryside so either you’ll have to wait for my return or you immediately claim victory because my absentism ๐Ÿ™‚

    Hope to get back to you soon..

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  44. PRODOS

    Hi lot.

    This is a short comment. Just for a change.


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  45. ewv

    This is not censorship. Prodos has freedom of speech, too. It’s his blog system and he chooses to use it to support certain broad goals for which he alone has the right to determine the standards.

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  46. PRODOS

    Thanks for you comment, ewv.

    You are precisely correct. I’ve already tried to explain what IS and what is NOT “censorship” a couple of times to lot.

    I find it highly amusing that so-called “anti-immigrationists” who are so ardent about RESTRICTING entry into a country on the basis of some flimsy genetic criteria complain so LOUDLY when their beloved Great White Hope is himself RESTRICTED.

    Is there not a hilarious irony to this?

    They clamour that Finland must KEEP OUT certain types of people. Why? To keep Finland safe and White.

    But when PRODOS keeps out someone – in order to maintain the standard and quality of the TTT network – this evokes in them a deep, heartfelt sadness.

    Tell me racialist-anti-immigrationists, how do you reconcile this?

    By the way ewv, as an Objectivist (follower of the philosophy of Ayn Rand), you might also be interested in Mikko Ellila’s letter to Leonard Peikoff posted on the front page of http://MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com

    Bye for now.

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  47. Finnj

    Right on, Prodos! Hilarious irony, with unintentional self-parody by the anti-immigrationists/racialists. ๐Ÿ˜€

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  48. Buzer

    Personally, I could be consired as a bit of anti-immigrationist (I’m Finn, so I have read quite a bit of Mikko’s earlier posts as well). My stance is: If you come here to work (or study and then work), you are welcome. If you come here to leech from us and/or commit crimes, you are not. Unfortunally, way too many belongs to the second category and usually nothing is done to them.

    Bassicly, I wish that if you commit one crime and if it’s fairly minor, you will be warned. If you commit two, you are out. If you commit one major crime (talking about rape, assault etc.), you are out. In both cases you will need to wait at least few years before you are allowed to try again and even then the requirements for entering are higher than the first time. This should keep most of the trouble makers gone.

    I doubt Mikko has anything against the first type of people I mentioned. Very few has. Most have problems with the second type and since one tends to see more way too many of the them, their standard image of immigratians is formed from them and the first type becomes as an exception in their mind.

    I do think Mikko’s writing style isn’t exactly polite, but he does get his point across to certain type of people. Those that want to read more polite posts can go read Halla-Aho’s posts.

    And about disabling his blog: Your site, your rules. Simple as that.

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  49. Finnj

    Well, I wouldn’t consider Halla-aho’s posts exactly “polite”, but his tone of argumentation is a bit different from Ellil

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  50. Buzer

    (note: Stats are mainly from 2005 since I’m not aware of more recent study. There is more accurate data about accused people than those who have been declared as guilty, but only about 0.9% of accused aren’t declared as guilty)
    > “way too many”, what do you precisely mean?
    People in Finland that don’t have Finnish nationality have been accused for crimes about 1.3-1.5 times more than people with Finnish nationality (born Finns, people who have got it later etc.). About 17% of immigrents have been accused (so about 13-11% of Finnish have been accused). Over 30% of people from Somalia, Turkey, Irak, Iran & Vietnam have been accused (there was total of 14 811 people from mentioned countries. 5 330 of them were accused, so about 36%).

    Isn’t this “way too many” in your opinion? It is in mine.

    > What would be the acceptable percentage of crimes committed by immigrants compared to crimes committed by the “real” Finns, so that you would not be an anti-immigrationist?
    The ideal would be zero (for Finns and immigrants) of course, but everyone knows that is impossible to archieve, so I would settle for same percentage for both (if both would drop to even 10%, it would be great).

    > And what if a person has been born in Finland to an immigrant family and she or he is thus a real, native Finn? Would you like to throw these people out too if they committed a serious crime?
    No. I draw the line at being native Finn (even if their parents aren’t as long as at least one parent is in Finland legally. Another one would be sent back to his/her country, so one couldn’t come to Finland illegally, become parent and then just stay in Finland without problems). But if the parents would commit a serious crime (both. If only one commits, s/he would need to leave) while the person is still underage, they would need to leave (most likely taking the kid with them or how many do you think would leave their kid alone in Finland?).

    > Or should there be some kind of a genetically (or skin colour) based criteria for nationality & citizenship?

    > Wouldn’t this be racism?

    > Would you like to send the Finnish-Swedish citizens (note: Finland has a Swedish speaking minority, who are nevertheless natural born Finns) who commit serious crimes back to Sweden?
    As I explained before, no.

    > And should the Swedish (and Americans, Australians, Germans etc.) send Finnish immigrants who commit serious crimes there back to Finland?

    > After how many generations are immigrants “real” citizens of a country X, so that they can serve their sentence in a prison in their home country?
    As many generations as the newborn isn’t Finnish citizen.

    So bassicly: You are bound to the country where you get your citizenship. Tho, if you are made to leave your first country (the crimes you need to do for that to happend are quite major as you probably know), you could change your citzienship, but only to some country that is worse (probably using HDI to determine this) than your old country (Sweden-Finland, Nigeria-Guinea) so this couldn’t be abused easily.

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  51. Finnj

    Are these statistics broken down by single crimes committed by an indivual? You know, 30-36% seems awfully high and in small populations, if one perpetrator commits let’s say 20 crimes, the mere number raises the percentage more than it would in a larger population.

    Let’s say a native white Finn commits 20 crimes in a population of 5 million and an immigrant the same amount of crimes in a population of 14 811 and count the respective percentages based on the number of crimes committed by that population that will show in the crime statistics. What shall we see? This is of course even more relevant if we break down the perpetrators according to their country of origin.

    Let’s say a single Somali commits 20 crimes in a population of 8000 (I don’t know how many people of Somalian origin currently reside in Finland, so this number is hypothetical) and a single native Finn the same amount in a population of 5 million. You know, because of this one Somali criminal, and the small total number of Somalis in Finland, in the crime statistics the population would falsely look much more apt to crimes compared to the larger population of native Finns. And if one Somali commits a rape five times, this would make it look much worse on a population level rape statistics than if one native Finn committed a rape five times. In other words, your generalization from the crime statistics and hence your anti-immgration stance would be based on a fallacy.

    Let me show what I mean:

    In a total immigrant population as small as 14 811, 20 criminals who each would commit 20 crimes would raise the number of crimes total to 400. On the other hand, take the same example in a population of 5 million (20 crimes each committed by 20 different individuals with a total number of 400). Now, count the percentages of crimes committed by a population and you’ll see what I mean.

    And though 20 individuals is percentually more criminals in a population of 14 811 than in a population of 5 million, it surely can’t be taken as an incidation of higher proness to criminal behaviour of that population. You know, the mere statistics don’t tell us anything about the causes behind individual crimes. The causes of criminal behaviour are complex and they never show in statistics. Despite this fact, I’ve noticed that the anti-immigrationists and racialists always generalize in the Ellil

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  52. Finnj

    What bugs me quite a lot in the anti-immigrationist propaganda is the fact that even when we read about examples of successfully integrated immigrants in Finland, like about Abdirahim Hussein Mohamed, who is currently studying at the open university and the president of the Helsinki youth section of the Center Party, the anti-immigrationists play them down and try to depict these success stories in a ridiculous light.


    This kind of a behaviour seems very racist and xenophobic to me. What is wrong with these people, when everything they see leads to the same conclusion as far as immigration is concerned? Could it be because their opinion is based on sheer racial prejudice? It certainly seems so, since opposite facts are used to back up the same negative conclusion about multiculturalism. If an immigrant doesn’t integrate, it’s bad, and if she or he does in fact integrate, it’s equally bad.

    Unfortunately the discussion about Abdirahim Hussein Mohamed’s case in Halla-aho’s Guest book is in Finnish, so Prodos and other non-Finnish can’t read the imbecilities the Halla-aho fan club writes there.


    In their minds, this case seems to be a threat to “Finnish culture”, since it is for some reason bad thing in the eyes of Halla-aho’s disciples that a person of Somali origin can be elected as the president of the youth section of a political party. I would like to ask, what does this fact tell about the democracy-mindedness (or lack of it) of an average anti-immigrationist bigot?

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  53. Mikko Ellil

    Buzer Says:
    (July 22nd, 2007 at 2:59 am)
    “People in Finland that don

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  54. Jussi K. Niemel

    So let’s discuss about it.

    Just like in his earlier comments, Mikko Ellil

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  55. Jussi K. Niemel

    I’ve followed this interesting discussion for some time and now I would like to comment on the IQ issue. First I would like to point out that the policy recommendations Mr. Ellil

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  56. Finnj

    Well here we have Ellil

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  57. Finnj

    A little more information about the crimes in Finland. Some parts of this provide the same information Niemel

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  58. secunda-jaska

    Congratulations to Finj

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  59. Finnj

    Thank you! Yes, secunda-jaska, you indeed must feel like Mikko is the most important white man in history, the saviour of the white race, and that his IQ must be at least 130, maybe even 150. So it’s a little bit sad to say that we do not necessarily share your faith in these issues. You see, reading the scientific literature would show to you that IQ correlates negatively with racial prejudice. Ask Chris Brand if you don’t believe me.


    Nevertheless, hallelujah and kippis!

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  60. PRODOS

    Good evening.

    Responding to secunda-jaska

    Returning to racial issue. It may be crucial for explaining the birth of modern capitalism and modern society. We must admit that most of the white people are very stupid, but it may be a question of breeding offspring with IQ over 130, which is the key point in advance in society. Whites are doing that TWENTYFOLD comparing to blacks.

    Putting aside for a moment the erroneous notion that national IQ and national wealth are related – which seems to be implied from secunda-jaska’s post – let me clarify that Capitalism is actually not about creating wealth.

    That is not and has never been the goal of Capitalism.

    Capitalism is about creating a society which defends individual rights. i.e. freedom. No more and no less.

    Material – as well as intellectual and spiritual – wealth are a mere consequence of liberty. Liberty is the goal, the purpose, the fundamental idea of Capitalism.

    Capitalism is based on the fundamental principle that “I own my life”.

    Capitalism is the social/political system which defends the inalienable principle of self-ownership. To be free is to be free FROM those who initiate force.

    I do not see how raising the IQ of populations can in any way advance the cause of freedom.

    IQ and the comprehension and enactment of respect for person and property are not connected.

    Low IQ scorers can be moral and respectful. High IQ scorers can be unscrupulous crooks.

    I do not believe that increasing the IQ level of a population (however it may be done) will either increase or decrease the degree of liberty or morality of a people.

    Apart from all this, IQ itself is a very limited instrument. What does it measure?

    The correlations I’ve studied between income and IQ are not that helpful.

    IQ scores do strongly correlate with school achievement. And to get some of the more highly paid jobs you need to have a high level of school achievement – even to be considered. But that doesn’t mean that IQ is itself an indicator of wealth-creating capacity.

    From what I understand, IQ tests seem to test pattern-recognition power (“Can you identify the pattern here?”) and pattern-extrapolation power (“Can you see where this pattern, if continued, will lead?”).

    Does IQ measure the ability or capacity to: challenge established concepts? challenge one’s own thinking? put together a new pattern/concept/idea? Be creative, inventive, innovative?

    Does IQ measure: determination? motivation? courage? restlessness? willingness to go against the community? against tradition?

    If IQ doesn’t measure such qualities then what good is it?

    Increasing the ability of populations (let’s say, through breeding) to better recognise or to extrapolate patterns (i.e. IQ) will NOT advance society.

    Society is advanced by the daring and the ingenious, the courageous and the creative, the stubborn and the insightful, the motivated and the inspired.

    There is hardly anything of value that IQ measures in any grand, human-advancement sense.

    IQ measurement misses nearly all truly useful human qualities.

    By the way, strong pattern-recognition and pattern-extrapolation ability can be found in conformists and copy-cats, and in paranoids and neurotic personalities in general. Why is that?

    Provided an individual lives his life morally, respecting those around him, earning his own way, and never plundering his neighbour, he is a positive contributor to society.

    His race, IQ, religion, etc. do not matter.

    As for “breeding” people with higher IQ (even if IQ did mean something useful), who is going to do this and how? What are you proposing?

    Best Wishes.

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  61. PRODOS

    I’d like to thank and to congratulate Jussi K. Niemel

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  62. Mikko Ellil

    Jussi K. Niemel

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  63. Mikko Ellil

    Jussi K. Niemel

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  64. secunda-jaska

    “The Haitians have their voodoo with all of it’s disgusting and bazaar beliefs and practices, and we have our cult of political correctness, our cult of egalitarianism. It is a cult based as much on superstition and as devoid of reason and logic as the voodoo of the Haitians and it exercises as strong a hold on it’s inherents. A Haitian would as soon offend a voodoo witch doctor and risk having a curse put on himself as one of our modern scholars would risk being labeled a racist.” – Dr. William L. Pierce

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  65. secunda-jaska

    “Capitalism is about creating a society which defends individual rights. i.e. freedom. No more and no less.

    Material – as well as intellectual and spiritual – wealth are a mere consequence of liberty. Liberty is the goal, the purpose, the fundamental idea of Capitalism.

    Capitalism is based on the fundamental principle that

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  66. PRODOS

    Replying to secunda-jaska

    Regarding your quote from Dr William L Pierce.

    I presume you are refering to William Luthor Pierce, founder of the National Alliance and associate of George Lincoln Rockwell, leader of the American Nazi Party.

    I have a question for you: Do you feel that the views of Dr William L Pierce and those of Mikko Ellila are aligned, similar or compatible?

    One area of difference seems to be that, as far as I am aware, Mikko has never promoted anti-semitism as has Dr William L Pierce.

    Regarding the quote you offered …

    I agree that there is a “cult of political correctness” that pervades much of today’s intelligentsia.

    However, I consider the White Pride, White Supremacy, White Separatist movements to also be irrational and to also be cults.

    I would place their level irrationality and status as cults, at about half way between the believers in voodoo and the post-modernist, political correctness crowd.

    In other words, they’re worse than the PC-ers but not as bad as the VooDoo-ers.

    Regarding being labelled as “racist”, it happened to me last year within the Political Party I am a member of, when I was speaking out against the multi-culturalist industry.

    Some of the leftie/PC members of the Party tried to start a rumour (like the planting of a magic “curse”) that I was racist or that I had “racist links”.

    Of course I put a quick stop to that nonsense.

    I also have a good friend, a Historian, who some years ago challenged the Australian government’s immigration policies and was subsequently screamed down by his fellow academics and by mobs of protesters as a “racist”.

    This was most unjust because he is not and has never been anything resembling a racist. Far from it.

    The smear of being called a “racist” when one is NOT a racist is a big problem. And the PC crowd does indeed treat the labelling of its enemies as “racist” as something akin to the implanting of a “curse” upon their enemies.

    Dr Pierce, however, would not be put off by being labelled a racist. He would wear such a label proudly, because it honestly and accurately represented his views.

    If someone were to point at him and taunt him with the cries of “racist, racist, racist!” he would probably respond “Yes! And proud of it!”

    He would not accept the value-judgement that the label of “racist” is self-evidently bad or evil.

    He would have scoffed at, and defied, those who did not share his racist views and values.

    My own view, as I’m sure your realise, is that I consider racism and racialist advocacy to be disgusting, and affront to human intelligence. I don’t judge people by their race. Only by their ideas. And I do not believe a person’s basic ideas or his/her moral worth or social value are in any way at all determined by any genetic attributes.

    Best Wishes.

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  67. PRODOS

    Replying to the next comment by secunda-jaska

    Those ideals were invented and maintained by clever and high morally people.

    I presume by “those ideals” you are referring to Capitalist Ideals. The sorts of ideals framed by the likes of John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Ludwig Von Mises, Ayn Rand … Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, etc.

    My fear is that lowering the populations IQ by cross breeding with negroids lowers the portion of high IQ and high moral of people in Europe and America, so also those values you Mr. Prodos mentioned would be gradually lost.

    First of all, even if its true that Blacks are genetically lower in IQ than Whites, and even if its true that interbreeding would lower the overall IQ, morality is a completely different issue.

    Morality and race do not correlate at all. Not one little bit. They physically and metaphysically can not correlate.

    In fact anything that is not purely a matter of volition can not be a matter of morality. Where there is no choice, there is no morality.

    Getting back to the issue of cross-breeding, which usually means “getting married and having children” – my observation (and this is by no means thorough science) is that people usually mate with someone of similiar intellectual stature/ability/capacity.

    As Sydney Kendall pointed out to me recently: A highly intelligent Black woman – if she were to marry a White man would most likely choose a highly intelligent White man – rather than one of lower intelligence.

    A low intelligence White female will most likely marry a low intelligence White male, rather than one who is of significantly higher intelligence.

    And so on.

    Also, speaking just from experience, and being of immigrant parents myself, and living in Melbourne which has an enormous diversity of immigrants, I’ve observed that the children of mixed races tend to be especially strong, healthy, and bright. Often more so than either of their parents. But, I repeat, these are not scientific observations.

    This may have happened before in history. What happened to Egypts high culture? They breeded with negroids after releasing the slaves.

    I don’t know enough about this part of history to comment.

    However, even if there is a correlation between interbreeding with Blacks, this does not mean there is a causal link.

    At best, one could present a hypothesis that interbreeding with Black slaves lowered the IQ of the Egyptians, but as with all hypotheses this would need to be tested in itself and against other possible explanations before being accepted at any level.

    So it may all come back to IQ and other values European population has developed (modesty, hard working, etc).

    Or not.

    If you have not already done so, I recommend reading my post Are Blacks genetically LOWER in intelligence and HIGHER in psychopathy than Whites?.

    It’s quite a long article, but it does address many of these sorts of issues and provides supporting evidence at every point.

    Best Wishes.

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  68. Buzer

    If someone were to point at him and taunt him with the cries of “racist, racist, racist!” he would probably respond “Yes! And proud of it!”
    Self-irony is important. If someone calls me as “sivarihomo” (=gay who is choosing civil service over army. The complete stereotype of people that chose civil service (+drug addicted, hippie etc.)), I would probably respond “Yes! And proud of it!”, but I’m straight in reality.

    When people keep accusing someone of being “sivarihomo”/racist/pirate/etc incorrectly, it becomes counterproductive. Just look at the pirate word. It was used incorrectly by media industry (and still is) and it has become as a complete joke.

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  69. Sydney Kendall

    secunda-jaska said:”My fear is that lowering the populations IQ by cross breeding with negroids lowers the portion of high IQ and high moral of people in Europe and America, so also those values you Mr. Prodos mentioned would be gradually lost.”

    Sydney Kendall: I don’t really see how race is of much significance here, because – while there are likely to be a few exceptions – most people are attracted to and choose their partners by compatibility, which includes being able to understand each other and to not be irritated out of your mind every day of your life by someone who is noticeably less intelligent. Or not to be made to feel dumb by someone who is much more on top of things than you are.

    I have had three important boyfriends in my life, one of whom I married, and many good friends. I became close friends with these people long before I knew their IQ scores, but of the 3 men and several of my best friends whose I.Q. scores I know, it so happens that most of us score above 130.

    Of those whose scores I don’t know, I have no doubt that they are as intelligent, if not more so, than I am, whatever their scores may be – the scores being less important than the evidence provided by the way a person lives and thinks day-to-day.

    Now, if I had fallen in love with a black man instead of a Greek Australian, do you think he would have been some guy of average intelligence who couldn’t keep up with me intellectually or morally? Do you think most women of high intelligence would choose that? Maybe a few masochists would do that, but most intelligent women are looking for intelligent men. Compatible partners. If they choose a man of another race, they’re not likely to choose a dummy or even a man of average intelligence.

    And I believe the same applies to men’s choices regarding partners.

    I think it is very unlikely that “cross-breeding” would lower the mean I.Q. because dummies would still marry dummies and bright people would still marry bright people.

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  70. Sydney Kendall

    “I have had three important boyfriends in my life, one of whom I married, and many good friends. I became close friends with these people long before I knew their IQ scores, but of the 3 men and several of my best friends whose I.Q. scores I know, it so happens that most of us score above 130.”

    To clarify: ALL of the men I dated seriously turned out to have IQs over 130. Potential partners – as opposed to good, non-romantic friends – spend LOTS of intimate time together (I’m not talking about sex), and have a greater need to be on the same mental wavelength.

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  71. Jussi K. Niemel

    This is a reply to Mikko Ellil

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  72. Jussi K. Niemel

    OK, I wasted some valuable time digging out the data I mentioned in my previous comment. I’m sure Ellil

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  73. Finnj

    It is interesting to note that for Mikko Ellil

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  74. Finnj

    Mikko Ellil

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  75. secunda-jaska

    Jussi K. Niemel

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  76. Hucleberry Finn


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  77. PRODOS

    Replying to Hucleberry Finn

    Thanks for your comment.

    For Jukka, me and many other Finnish bloggers who support Ellil

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  78. jl

    Some points:

    The use of Finnish crime statistics to prove something about the propensity of immigrants to crime is problematic. The race/ethnicity of the perpetrator is never registered. In the above referenced National Research Institute of Legal Policy study about foreigners’ criminality, the definition of “foreigner” is “someone with no Finnish citizenship”. Considering that, for example, most Somalis in Finland are Finnish citizens, the study says little about their overall tendency to crime. I don’t know of any recent study about crime in Finland where race/ethnicity is taken into account.

    In any case, when assessing the success (or lack thereof) of different immigrant groups in Finland, various socio-economic indicators are more reliable and useful than crime statistics. For example, we know that the majority of adult Somalis in Finland are on the dole, whereas Estonian and Russian immigrants are mostly employed.

    From Finnish and other Western experience we know that immigrants from some areas are much more likely to become good citizens than immigrants from certain other areas. I fail to see how it is against liberalism to have a preference for the former. I don’t think liberalism requires the dismantling of national sovereignty and borders. Also, it’s immaterial whether the constant failure of certain immigrant groups is due to biological or environmental reasons — the mere fact that e.g. Africans tend to make bad citizens makes it a bad policy to allow them to immigrate in large numbers.

    Now if those immigrants who have become legal residents in e.g. Finland are discriminated against because of, say, their race, that would be anti-liberal. But I don’t think that is what Ellil

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  79. PRODOS

    Thanks for your comment jl.

    … we know that the majority of adult Somalis in Finland are on the dole …

    Is that actually the case? I’m not saying it’s not. Simply that I’m very curious about this point and would like to know if it’s correct and upon what data this relies. Also, whether any data which seems to support such a case is reliable or flawed.

    From Finnish and other Western experience we know that immigrants from some areas are much more likely to become good citizens than immigrants from certain other areas.

    Is that the case?

    There does seem to be some evidence in support of this view, I agree.

    If it is in fact so, then why? That’s what I’m not sure about. I think it’s important to understand this better.

    I fail to see how it is against liberalism to have a preference for the former. I don

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  80. Finnj

    About the use of crime statistics, IQ data and calling me a liar.

    Yesterday’s Helsingin Sanomat (the leading newspaper in Finland) reported that because of one gang of Somalis that committed numerous crimes a couple of years ago in Helsinki the crime rate of that group skyrocketed in the statistics. Now, when those individuals are in prison, there has been practically no crimes at all committed by Somali immigrants. This will of course appear only in the future crime statistics.

    Does “Hucleberry Finn” claim that actually there are two “Jukkas” who write about the same racialist and collectivist issues in identical style, link to each other, link to Rushton and Jensen, ‘IQ and race’ entry of Wikipedia, and comment in the same vein? Are there actually two “Jukkas” specialized in racialist propaganda?

    Which one of these is the same “Jukka” that writes racist comments on the forum of Suomen Sisu (“The Guts of Finland”), the leading Finnish nationalist organization that opposes the “unnatural” (whatever that is supposed to mean) mixing of the people and races? Is this the same “Jukka” that is strongly against “cross-breeding” of Finns with “Negroids” lest the mean IQ of Finns drop? On this issue, he certainly resembles Ellil

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  81. Jussi K. Niemel

    Below are two links to Jukka’s blog “Kansankokonaisuus” where he strongly supports Ellil

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  82. PRODOS


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  83. Jussi K. Niemel

    I would like to present some scientific facts about IQ and individual and group differences that the racialists never mention in their writings. Please read them very carefully and digest what you have read well. The message is quite obvious, if you want to hear it. The quotes are from the leading text-books or books written by true experts of their field.

    “During the 1960s, environmentalism, which had been rampant until then in American psychology, was beginning to wane, and the stage was set for increased acceptance of genetic influence on g. Then, in 1969, a monograph on the genetics of intelligence by Arthur Jensen almost brought the field to a halt, because the monograph suggested that ethnic differences in IQ might involve genetic differences. Twenty-five years later, this issue was resurrected in ‘The Bell Curve’ (Herrnstein & Murray, 1994) and caused a similar uproar. The causes of average differences between groups need not be related to the causes of individual differences within groups. The former question is much more difficult to investigate than the latter, which is the focus of the vast majority of genetic research on IQ. The question of the origins of ethnic differences in performance on IQ tests remains unsolved” (Plomin, Robert; DeFries, John C.; McClearn, Gerald E.; McGuffin, Peter: “Behavioral Genetics”, Fourth Edition; Worth Publishers, 2001, p.165).

    “It is especially important to distinguish differences BETWEEN groups from differences WITHIN groups in discussions of ethnic or social class differences in IQ. For both blacks and whites in the United States, social class (independent of race) accounts for about 8 percent of the variance of IQ. Race (independent of social class) accounts for about 14 percent. However, individual differences, independent of race and class, are responsible for 78 percent of the variance. In fact, the average IQ difference between full siblings in a family is twice as great as the average differences between social classes, and as great as the average difference between blacks and whites (Jensen, 1976). It seems clear that each person must be evaluated individually, not on the basis of race or class membership, in situations where IQ is a relevant consideration. Thus, although group differences appear deceptively easy to grasp and to talk about, individual differences within groups make a far more important contribution to total variance” (Plomin, Robert; DeFries, John C.; McClearn, Gerald E.: “Behavioral Genetics – A Primer; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1980, emphasis in the original text).

    The study cited in the quote above is Jensen, Artur R.: “Test bias and construct validity”. Phi Delta Kappan, December, 340-346).

    “Jensen (1980a) calculated the percentage of variance attributable to race and social class background on the Wechsler tests for a representative sample of 622 black and 622 white elementary school children in California … Race, with socioeconomic status statistically controlled, accounts for 14% of the variance in IQ scores in this sample. Race and social class combined account for 22% of the variance. Variations within families among children reared together with the same racial and socioeconomic background accounts for 44% of the variance in these data, indicating that variations among individuals with identical socioeconomic backgrounds and racial backgrounds account for more variance in tests of intelligence than either race or socioeconomic status. These data, which are roughly representative of what has been found in other studies, indicate that variations in scores on tests of intelligence are attributable primarily to characteristics of persons that are independent of their racial and socioeconomic background. Although, in this chapter, our emphasis shifts from a consideration of individual differences to a consideration of differences among groups of individuals, it should be recognized that an individual’s performance on a test of intelligence is never defined or predictable from his or her group identity. Research on intelligence, properly considered, should invariably serve as an antidote to stereotypes” (Brody, Nathan: “Intelligence”, Second Edition; Academic Press, Inc., 1992, pp. 280-281).

    The work cited in the quote above is Jensen, Arthur R.: “Bias in Mental Testing” (Free Press, 1980). From this book we can read that “obviously the IQ test measures mainly INDIVIDUAL differences, differences between persons that are very largely NOT attributable to differences in their racial and socioeconomic backgrounds” (p. 43, Jensen’s emphasis).

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  84. Jussi K. Niemel

    Migration, Remittances and Development


    This publication presents the current situation with regard to the magnitude and economic impact of migrants

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  85. secunda-jaska

    Again Finj

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  86. Jussi K. Niemel

    The racialists and anti-immigrationists in Finland often use crime statistics from other countries like USA to support their dubious political agenda. They think that race somehow determines the propensity to criminal behaviour, just like Ellil

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  87. Jussi K. Niemel

    To secunda-jaska.

    Like Finnj

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  88. Finnj

    Hucleberry Finn called me a liar in the question regarding the identity of Jukka and “Jukka”.

    So I did some more detective work. The case is now closed. I found a comment by “Edelweiss” from the ultra-racist race blog and clicked “Edelweiss” in it.


    It lead to the profile of “Jukka” of the “Kansankokonaisuus” blog:


    So “Edelweiss” is Jukka A from the ranks of Jussi Halla-aho supporters and Hucleberry Finn lied, while calling me a liar.

    Yep, Chris Brand study of 1987 holds: these racist guys are a bunch of idiots and liars.

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  89. jl

    Prodos, I’m sorry for not replying sooner. Anyway…

    According to Ministry of Labour, the Somali unemployment rate was 53% in May 2007 (http://tinyurl.com/2unvb7). However, it is not clear if this statistic includes Somalis who are Finnish citizens. An earlier study from 2003, which is about immigrants who moved to Finland between 1991 and 1994, puts the Somali unemployment rate at 56% (http://tinyurl.com/3693f2 – page 5). Moreover, many of those Somalis who do have a job are rather precariously employed, often in short-term public sector jobs that were specifically created in order to lower the unemployment rate.

    The unemployment rates for Russian and Estonian immigrants are 30% and 10%, respectively, according to the Ministry of Labour study cited above.

    The relative failure of certain immigrant groups to adapt to Western society stems either entirely from cultural reasons or from both cultural and biological/genetic reasons. Like I said, it doesn’t matter which of these explanations you subscribe to, because the failure is there regardless of the reasons behind it. To promote the reception of large numbers of the kind of immigrants who are likely to become bad citizens is simply bad policy (by “bad citizens” I mean people who are members of the underclass).

    It’s certainly possible that the descendants of African immigrants will in a few generations be as well-adjusted as the native population in Finland, even if this has not happened anywhere in the Western world so far, but whatever the case, governments should not embark on such an idealistic social engineering project on taxpayers’ money. It’s the job of scientists, not governments, to study the origin of differences in human capability.

    I think the risks associated with the acknowledgement of racial/ethnic differences are overstated. The differences are statistical, and don’t tell anything a priori about any given individual. I think immigration from the developing world to the West should be very selective, especially in the case of ethnicities whom are known to adapt poorly. This also prevents the proliferation of inward-looking, endogamous ethnic enclaves, which I think are eroding liberal democracy.

    It’s better for e.g. Africans to be few in numbers in Finland and intermarry with Finns than to form distinct racial and cultural minorities. “Diversity” should not be a goal in itself.


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  90. Finnj

    There is also evidence that a negative prejudice by the Finnish employers is a prominent factor in the reluctance to employ Somalis. Another factor is that the occupational education and degrees of the country of origin differ from those used in Finland.

    Also, the current Finnish social security system creates welfare traps, but the new government is doing something about this. The shortage of manpower in labour with the new, more dynamic social security system are probably going to take care of this problem in the near future.

    So the reason behind the high unemployment rate of the Somalis is more likely the structure and legislation in labour market and social security. Also the labour unions and the minimum wage system make the welfare traps worse in our country. The anti-immigrationists might as well blame bureaucracy. But they rather blame the people of African origins instead.

    The anti-immigrationists also repeatedly complain about wasting tax-payers’s money on immigration, although recent Gallups have shown that most of the Finns want to support welfare state and social security system.

    But the anti-immigrationists are overall in the clear minority in Finland and their own party, “The True Finns”, is in opposition and has only five seats in the Finnish Parliament. They wield no political power at all in our country. This is why the anti-immigrationists inseminate their propaganda in the internet. Their opinion is so marginal and utopian that no one bothers to take it seriously.

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  91. Potti


    The anti-immigrationists also repeatedly complain about wasting tax-payers

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  92. jl


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  93. Jukka


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  94. lot

    Hello again everybody,

    Hope you have had as relaxing times as I lately. I also hope that you too are in relaxed mood so that you don’t

    Prodos, our discussion regarding your alleged censorship is not going anywhere. I do not question your right to do whatever you will with your own resources. When this discussion started, I was on the impression that you were going to delete the whole blog altogether. You corrected me that this was not the case, you were just going to disable it. You are using force to shut Ellil

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  95. PRODOS

    Welcome back lot.

    Thanks for your reply.

    lot: Prodos, our discussion regarding your alleged censorship is not going anywhere.

    I think it’s been quite productive. I have gained a better understanding of your views, and you have gained a better understanding of mine. This would not have happened without the discussion.

    lot: I do not question your right to do whatever you will with your own resources.

    I don’t do whatever I want – in the sense of whatever I feel like.

    I seek to do what is right – to the best of my ability.

    This includes my responsibility to all the other TTT bloggers who have signed up on the THINKER TO THINKER service and rely on me to only permit those who share a number of basic, broadly defined principles.

    It is similar to the way that the citizens of a nation rely on their government to not let criminals, terrorists, and saboteurs into their country. And to deal with any bad characters if they do happen to get in.

    In a sense, Mikko Ellila has been deported from the TTT service.

    lot: When this discussion started, I was on the impression that you were going to delete the whole blog altogether. You corrected me that this was not the case, you were just going to disable it.

    Sure. I don’t believe at any time I ever said to either Mikko or to anyone else that I was intending to delete his blog.

    Furthermore, at all times, I have stated repeatedly and consistently that I defend Mikko’s freedom of speech – by which I mean – freedom from government censorship – even though I find his writing on racial issues apalling and dumb.

    Although I will note that there is someone even more apalling and dumb than even our little racialist, shifty, context-shifting friend, Mikko Ellila.

    Namely, that other Mikko: Mikko Puumalainen, Ombudsman for Minorities, Finland.

    lot: You are using force to shut Ellil

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  96. Finnj

    It seems that Jukka has taken some of his most appallingly racist blog posts out of his race blog and now instead supports helping Africa. So his new, cleaned race blog is suddenly about helping Africa! Self-censorship, perhaps?

    It’s nice to see that you can make a considerable impact to Finnish racialists on an Australian blog! ๐Ÿ˜€ They suddenly look almost politically correct. This should give Ellil

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  97. Finnj

    lot says: “ps: to my knowledge, Jukka at Kansankokonaisuus is not the same person as Jukka at rotuerot.”

    He definitely is, but now that he has censored his own race blog and deleted for instance the post on the “Negro character”, the link I posted above earlier doesn’t prove this anymore. But why would he censor his blog and cover his tracks, if he wasn’t the same Jukka? What difference that would make? In his latest post, Jukka doesn’t thank me for making him more politically correct, though he should ๐Ÿ˜‰


    However, regarding the evidence about Jukka’s identity, I think many readers here on the Prodos blog already noticed what I found out, at least Jukka and his friends noticed it, since Jukka has now cleaned out his blog and covered his tracks.

    To sum it up: Jukka used the name “Edelweiss”, pretended to be someone else. However, when I found a comment posted by “Edelweiss” on the race blog and clicked it, it lead to the blogger profile of Jukka of Kansankokonaisuus. And on Jukka’s Kansankokonaisuus blog he said that the new race blog is owned by “Edelweiss.” You can read everything from above, so there’s no need to pretend that there are two different Jukkas anymore.

    Well, at least now Jukka has probably learned how to cover his tracks better and as I already mentioned, he now wants to help Africa. But he still speculates about the “biological characteristics” of Africans in the end of his latest post. He doesn’t mention what these characteristics are, but probably they have something to do with IQ. So now, after some considerable critique by Prodos, Niemel

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  98. The Naked Lunch

    Protos, argued into a corner, cannot say anything intelligent anymore. This anti free speech act is either a power trip, or some superficial misconception of classical liberalism and capitalism. He’s just portraying such enormous ignorance when discussing this topic, and repeating it over and over again. He can even take 50 pages to repeat a pre-determined (and thus quasi-intellectual) “nice truth”. Facts are facts, they aren’t necessarily nice, and don’t bow to our emotions or social norms. First of all the two topics (racialism and capitalism) are not at odds with each other, but separated. Secondly many “racialist” views, although not socially acceptable, are based in an enormous body of scientific study and evidence, and are logically supportable, and intellectually entirely valid viewpoints to hold. If you disagree, I will consider you a creationist, ignorant of evolutionary theories. Thirdly an individual is the basic building block of a liberal, capitalist society; from this follows that the individual qualities of the members of the populace is not a mood point for liberalism and capitalism. Does anyone actually believe it plausible that all the differences between rich and poor countries could be explained in terms of culture and structures, or alternatively, to take a positive example, genes have got nothing to do with the fact that ashkenazi jews have won like 33% of the nobel prizes in science (and 50% of world chess championships), while forming what 0.2% of world population?

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  99. The Naked Lunch

    You might also want to ask yourself are Chihuahua and Bullmastiff also social constructs? Genes don’t matter you know…

    To make matters even worse for Prodos re: capitalism; it was the Marxists and so called social democrats in the red countries, and in left leaning western universities who popularized the blank slate fallacy. See modern neuroscience for complete falsification of that still popular misconcept. To use an inadequate image; man is born a hardware, and all the stuff he learns is the software. In western countries (with social backgrounds being relatively homogenous) it is estimated that differences in intelligence, could be upto 80% hereditary.

    It was the socialists who insisted that everyone was equal, and thus such things couldn’t be true. You are walking on a very thin ice here Prodos. Capitalism and survival of the fittest are not that at distant opposites.

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  100. Finnj

    lot says: “I don

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  101. John Humphreys

    Western civilisation is clearly compatable with Islam. The Bible holds all the same problems that the Koran holds… but Christian society has learnt to turn a blind eye to the more idiotic chapters of their Holy Book (ie endorsing slavery, endorsing gang-rape, endorsing mass-genocide etc).

    The problem isn’t Islam… the problem is “islamic socialism”. While the “christian socialism” movement is much smaller it exists and is just as objectionable to thinking people.

    Regarding Mikko & the LDP — you are correct that I certainly wouldn’t want him as a member.

    I just don’t think race-based immigration restrictions are significantly more statist than religion-based immigration restrictions (or $1 trillion foreign aid invasions… or the drug war… or fiat currency), so I don’t think he is necessarily an anti-capitalist. I would say he’s a capitalist (with a few exceptions, as most people have) and on a personal level he’s a bigotted muppet.

    But having said all that — love your work Prodos. Would you like to be the LDP candidate for Albert Park. No Libs are running so you wouldn’t be disloyal. Just don’t mention the war.

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  102. Jukka

    I read the posts I had been doing for Suomen Sisu posted here by Finnj

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  103. Finnj

    Potti says: “And your translation is bit vulgar and misleading.
    perus = basic, suomalaiset= the finns. Perussuomalaiset = basic finns, not True Finns as you try to impose. Please. Stick to reality .”

    Calling me vulgar and misleading? Jesus Christ, these guys can’t even read and no sane argument seems to affect their desperate, blind faith! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Why don’t you Potti quit blaming me and instead stick to reality by yourself? You know, I just follow the official translation. The party is called True Finns in English everywhere. They themselves call their party by that name in English, so what are you trying to say?


    You are misleading, not I. This is also because you blame THE GREAT MULTICULTURALIST CONSPIRACY for the low support of True Finns and don’t understand statistics (this disability to read statistics is a very common trend among your anti-immgration buddies).

    Whatever you say, True Finns are still in the clear minority and opposition in Finland and the racialists and racists among their ranks are even more in the margins. No one of the Suomen Sisu candidates went through in the March election, not even your super-Messiah Halla-aho. He only got 2209 votes and this is about half less than the pro-immigration Zahra Abdulla from the Green League got (4174 votes). Please do notice the overall low number of votes for the candidates of True Finns in Helsinki in the list on Halla-aho’s post linked below. Zahra Abdulla alone almost got as much votes as the entire list of Helsinki True Finns! ๐Ÿ˜€



    Moreover, Timo Soini, the party leader of True Finns, has publicly said that his party don’t want to have anything to do with racists.

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  104. Finnj

    jl says: “I don

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  105. Finnj

    Jukka says: “Here you are wrong. The blog is not about communalism against individualism. It is about communal feelings. Communal feelings may be good when they promote co-operation for something good. Often they do but often they do promote co-operation for something bad like genocide.”

    I agree on the question of communal feelings; they very often promote something bad and evil, like the oppression of an individual of any race. Maybe you become aware that some of your communal emotions were making you promote something bad and evil, since I just noticed that you made the decision to delete your entire race blog after my criticism here in Australia? I also noticed that the tone of your recent posts on your Kansankokonaisuus blog is now more liberal and individualistic. So maybe you can soon join the Liberal Party? ๐Ÿ˜€


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  106. Finnj

    Jukka seems to agree with me and accept my criticism. So, Jukka is among those few individuals who really can and will change their erroneous views on the basis of the arguments of an opponent. This is a clear sign of a scientific mentality. In the end, Jukka is the only man here among the Finnish anti-immigrationists who gets my sympathies.

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  107. lot


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  108. PRODOS

    Replying to both of the comments (above) by “The Naked Lunch” …

    Protos, [Prodos] argued into a corner, cannot say anything intelligent anymore.

    Don’t worry, I’ve got plenty more to say.

    I’m only just getting warmed up! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Especially since the race issue is new to me. It’s only since the Two Mikko’s (Mikko Puumalainen + Mikko Ellila) that I’ve begun to study this matter.

    I find it very interesting.

    I certainly don’t feel “cornered.”

    On the contrary, your petulant tantrums and resorts to insult and dogmatism, rather than rational debate, only serve to make you look farcical.

    This is not a wise approach to use in a public debate.

    Calm down a little and join the civilized world, buddy.

    This anti free speech act is either a power trip,

    What “anti free speech act”? Can you please explain what you mean?

    Are you saying that disabling MikkoEllila.ThinkerToThinker.com is “anti free speech”?

    or some superficial misconception of classical liberalism and capitalism.

    My understanding of the essentials of classical liberalism and capitalism rests on such thinkers as:

    Aristotle, John Locke, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson and the Founding Fathers, Frederic Bastiat, Ludwig von Mises, Ayn Rand.

    The THINKER TO THINKER blog service uses The Bernstein Declaration as a general summary of the essentials of these thinkers, and captures the general spirit of what I mean by Capitalist Ideals.

    If there is a misconception within this, then I am more than happy to learn of it and to consider it.


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  109. Jussi K. Niemel

    I haven’t noticed that Prodos has in any of his posts supported the tabula rasa view of humans. But since Prodos asked for a good source on this question, I highly recommend Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate:


    In this magnificent piece of work, Pinker shows that innate biological traits and human nature are in no contradiction with liberal and democratic ideals.

    I would also like to ask “lot”, whence the daunting pessimism and nihilism? You see, I’ve written an internet pamphlet on sociobiology and studied evolutionary topics for years, but I don’t share your nihilistic views as to politics in any way. So clearly you must have understood something wrong regarding human behaviour or committed a non sequitur.

    It is a truism that human behaviour is to some extent genetically determined, but generally we can say that human behaviour is highly context-dependent and malleable. Edward O. Wilson himself, in his Sociobiology, said that humans are ridiculously easy to indoctrinate. We also see huge cultural differences all around the world, though human nature everywhere is basically the same. There are of course many cultural universals too, but even in Europe we have seen some pretty rapid economical and political development in a few centuries. We’ve also seen huge progress in human rights issues and I think you “anti-immigrationists” are currently trying to stop that progress and indeed reverse it. But my point is that this socio-economic and political progress surely isn’t genetically determined.

    Human group behaviour is highly context-dependent too, so I have to say that you are dead wrong in your characterisations about ethnic conflict above. I think you should delve deeper into this question before making overarching political conclusions about it. You might want to read these papers through:



    As to IQ and other important scientific concepts, we can say that they are statistical notions that can’t say that much about individuals, though they can predict some societal outcomes like educational and occupational level to some extent. However, IQ is based on comparison and is not an absolute measure. This is mentioned in Arthur R. Jensen’s every book, among others. There are also many other personality traits that are important in education and labour.

    An individual with willpower, diligence and determination surely can overcome her or his limits that show on the IQ scale. Read, for instance, Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s excellent autobiography Infidel:


    Hirsi Ali tells about the IQ test she was given in Holland when she immigrated there, but she just didn’t care about the low score on math and the recommendation by the employment official to apply for some non-adacemic job. Instead, she worked very hard to achieve what she aimed at and made it to the college to study political history. The rest is history.

    About Finnj

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  110. lot

    Hello Jussi,

    I honestly appreciate having such feedback. Finnj

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  111. lot

    Prodos, this may not be a suprise, but in some odd way, I’m starting to like your deportation policies. ๐Ÿ™‚ Still, I’m sad that you deported Mikko, but luckily he has found a new home and does not seem to mind too much.

    Prodos: No, I

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  112. Jussi K. Niemel

    lot, you asked about the fallacy in your comment. It was about the hostilities between ethnic groups. You obviously didn’t bother even to look at the articles I linked. However, their message is clear: There is no biologically determined human propensity for hostility between ETHNIC groups. I don’t have time to teach you the basic evolutionary science on human behaviour, but generally speaking, young males are more prone to violent and risky behaviour than any other groups. Where there are young males, there is at some point violent conflict. This happens between members within the same ethnic group and the individuals within these [ethnic] groups in turn form groups that have conflicts with other groups etc. Reading recommendations on this subject:



    However, my point is that there are many ways to curtail these hostilities. In liberal democracies, for instance, violence is not so common and fierce than in places where anarchy rules. With justice system and police, and proper education, it is possible to affect human behaviour quite drastically. There are moral codes in every human population on earth. Morality (moral emotions) is part of human nature, but to become moral of course involves learning and education too. In other words, it is also possible to teach morality to young males that are prone to violent behaviour. There’s absolutely no reason for pessimism and nihilism regarding these target groups, though you – on the basis of your comment above – seem to be inclined to these negative cognitive states of mind (it is very likely that there’s a genetic component involved in an individual’s propensity to pessimism and nihilism, by the way).

    Let me give you one parade example about positive thinking. Two years ago in Helsinki, there was this gang of young males, some of them of the Somalian origin. These gang committed many violent robberies and a couple of rapes. Then the police, social workers and the Somali community interrupted and tackled the issue, the criminals were put in prison and hobbies like night basketball were organised for the rest of these youths. After this, the Somali violent crime rate dropped dramatically. In 2006 there were only four Somali-born robbery suspects and this year, only one. Chief inspector Mika P

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  113. jl


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  114. The Naked Lunch

    Unlike ‘anti-racialism’ free exchange of ideas is inherent to capitalism and classical liberalism. I’m being rude to you because I absolutely hate censorship, especially from someone who claims to stand for values that are the opposite of censorship.

    Jussi K. Niemel

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  115. Jussi K. Niemel

    Actually, I haven’t claimed or denied anything this fellow here says I’ve claimed. So he probably hasn’t read anything I’ve written. Besides, I haven’t drawn a general conclusion from the case of Hirsi Ali, I’ve only said that it is possible for some individuals to overcome their limits that show on their IQ score and because of this, it is always wrong to discriminate individuals on the basis of some group mean. There’s of course a treshold value in IQ and if you are below that, you can’t compensate your limitations with other personality traits.

    This fellow also seems not to be aware of the fallacy that values don’t logically follow from facts, though he accuses me of a logical fallacy. The mean difference between siblings is 12 IQ points. It is also possible that one of your siblings is a genuine innate psychopath. It of course doesn’t follow from these facts that it is OK for the sibling with higher IQ to oppress the one with lower IQ. And it is of course self evident that there’s no reason to accept the cruel behaviour of a psychopath toward her or his siblings though it’s a fact that this individual is a psychopath.

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  116. Jussi K. Niemel

    I would like to add one important point to my earlier comment where I responded to Naked Lunch. This is also relevant to some of the views lot expressed in one of his comments above.

    The modern neo-Darwinistic evolutionary theory is mainly about explaining altruism and co-operation, tit-for-tat, in the parlance of the game theory, not about survival of the fittest in the old social Darwinistic sense. The survival of the fittest is actually the survival of the nice guys. This is indeed the key message of Richard Dawkins’ famous book The Selfish Gene:


    And this is a very good book about the evolution of co-operation:


    Here’s a TV document on this topic:


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  117. PRODOS

    Good afternoon.

    Thanks everyone for your recent comments.

    I haven’t had a chance to respond yet, but hope to do so tomorrow.

    Best Wishes.

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  118. Walter Allen Haxton

    The book that sparked this controversy has been reviewed by Mises and is currently being used as a policy document by many people in Europe and the United Nations. Much destruction of wealth and continued impoverishment of the poorest people on this planet will result if these ideas are not defeated.

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  119. lot

    Unfortunately I could not take enough time to continue this discussion. I do regret this. Jussi, I read most of the material you kindly linked to me. I have some observations I would like to discuss with you. Preferably in Finnish. Do visit my blog some day so we can continue.

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