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Blog discussion on racialism and racism

Since disabling the THINKER TO THINKER ™blog of Mikko Ellila (for his advocacy ofracialist public policy), there’s been a very interesting, indepth, detailed debate going on at the PRODOS blog exploring every aspect of racialism and racism.

Everything from immigration to crime statistics, IQ scores, Nationalist movements, scientific studies, and many more areas have been touched on.

The tone has been reasonably polite, if robust at times, from both racialists and anti-racialists.

I invite you to have a look at:

http://prodos.thinkertothinker.com/?p=366

It’s taken up quite a bit of my time, participating in the commenting, and also dealing with private correspondence from some participants, but it’s certainly been worth it!

Racialism and racism are two areas I’ve never examined.

I’m enjoying learning how the racialists and racists (I do differentiate the two, although they have areas in common) put together their arguments.

My interest is not so much for the sake of polemics (i.e. in order to rebutt them) but primarily to get a genuine, clear understanding of their methodology, principles, approach.

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41 Comments

  1. “Since disabling the THINKER TO THINKER

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  2. More data on the Finnish crime statistics from the study conducted by the Police College of Finland:

    RACIST CRIME REPORTED TO THE POLICE IN 2006 (p. 73-74)

    http://www.poliisiammattikorkeakoulu.fi/poliisi/pakk/home.nsf/files/Tiedotteita%2062/$file/Tiedotteita%2062.pdf

    ABSTRACT

    The purpose of this study is to survey racist offences leading to crimi-
    nal reporting in Finland during 2006. The study examines incidents
    where people have become subject to crime because their skin colour,
    race or ethnic origin differed from that of the offender. The data is based
    on police reports meeting certain criteria in the police data system
    (PATJA), i.e., on the information contained in reports of an offence. This
    study examines exclusively suspected crimes, not crimes themselves.
    No information on the rulings in a court of law is available. A suspected
    crime becomes a crime only when found so by a court of law.

    In 2006, a total of 748 suspected racist crimes were filed. The
    number is higher than in the previous years. The most common of-
    fence, as in previous years, was assault. A total of 40% of all cases
    were assaults or attempted assaults. Other common headings of of-
    fence in 2006 were discrimination, breach of honour, unlawful threats
    and damage to property. In 2006, there were more discrimination
    cases than the year before. These took place, with only few excep-
    tions, in a restaurant into which a member of an ethnic minority was
    denied access. The most common locale for committing racist of-
    fences was a restaurant or the area in front of it or an outdoor public
    place such as a street, road, market place or park. Over 60% of the
    offences were committed in the evening or at night.

    Most of the suspected racist crimes were committed against for-
    eigners or people of foreign extraction. However, the proportion of Fin-
    nish victims increased from the previous years and accounted for over
    a half of all victims of racist crimes. Of foreigners, the ethnicities most
    offended against were the Turks, Somalis and Iranians. The majority
    (73%) of all people reporting were men, most of them belonging to the
    35

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  3. PRODOS Says:
    “In my notes to you in the comments section of
    http://prodos.thinkertothinker.com/?p=354

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  4. Good morning.
    Jussi: and 3) writes blog posts and racialist comments on Finnish anti-immigration sites with an obvious racialist bias. Mikko: Irrelevant. We

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  5. So, Jussi K, can you simply say what made you change your opinion on this issue. What was the main scientific argument you read changing your opinion especially about Rushtons book and paper – and also about Vanhanen and Lynn ? I am asking this quite openly.

    Give a list of links of good papers or short description on the transformation and I read it. I am not going to participate in the discussion above this time because I have some other project on-going for some weaks.

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  6. Sorry about the finnish – my mistake.

    I was just asking Jussi K. what was the scientific reason for him changing opinion on Rushton and Jensen especially. I requested for some links I could read or short description. I promise to try to understand the point / argumentation. In the discussion above with a lot of text I do not really find the argument.

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  7. To Jukka.

    I actually haven’t changed my opinion that much, but after reading Richard Lynn’s latest book and the policy recommendations by you and certain other individuals like Mikko Ellil

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  8. Yes and about the politics…

    Shortly – I am promoting an immigration policy which is race, culture, sex, IQ or whatever aware in the sense that we can choose the immigrants we take in our country based on what ever criteria we choose ourselves.

    When we develope the criteria we should be very practical – minimizing number of conflict, maximizing innovation, minimizing dysgeny, minimizing criminality etc.

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  9. I would like to add the following to my earlier reply to Jukka:

    There is also an important critique of Rushton & Jensen and Lynn & Vanhanen by Leon J. Kamin, called “African IQ and mental retardation”. South African Journal of Psychology, 36(1) 2006, pp.1-9.

    Unfortunately, this paper is not avaible on the web. Also unfortunately, in the past, professor Kamin has made a clown of himself, because of his obvious Marxist bias in his writings about the heritability of IQ (he in effect denied it!).

    But this recent paper by Kamin has some valid points regarding the mean IQ 70 Lynn has calculated for Sub-Saharan Africa and which Rushton and Jensen rely upon. In this paper, Kamin shows clear discrepansies in Lynn’s comments about Raven’s Progressive Matrices and the Flynn Effect:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven's_Progressive_Matrices

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    Regarding the secular rise of the IQ scores in Holland, Lynn acknowledges that RPM is not culture fair – far from it. However, most of the data from sub-Saharan Africa is based on RPM. Lynn also has acknowledged that schooling has an effect on the RPM test scores in his 1987 paper “Japan: Land of the rising IQ. A reply to Flynn.” Bulletin of the British Psychological Society, 40, 464-468.

    So, I think it’s fair to say that we should be highly critical about Lynn’s data on African mean IQ of 70. Caution and agnosticism is a standard procedure in science if there is not clear evidence and valid data and this issue makes no exception.

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  10. Thank you Jussi,

    But one point on the politics (values) part – let’s try to distinguish the politics and the science part:

    You are saying: “To you, IQ seems to be a way to value individuals in the society. You base human worth on the mean group IQ and I find this appalling. ”

    I do not think that a person with low IQ has low value as human being. I do not think that a muslim or christian fundamentalist has lower value as human being. What I am saying is “why should we create trouble by taking people to our country who with big probably cause harm”. We have the right to choose.

    If I say “lets not prefer young men at age 20 from Irak as immigrants” do you think it means that I value them lower as human beings ?

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  11. Jussi,

    Maybe the african IQ average is 85 as you say. Maybe it is 70 but the gap between african american IQ and african african IQ is due to environmental reasons like lack of micronutrients. It is an open question yet. I think Vanhanen and Lynn discussed this later possibility in their first book. I have not checked the details.

    The main point is not the exact number but whether we in our country are allowed to execute a race aware immigration policy. Due we agree until know ?

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  12. Yes you do, Jukka. To prefer is to value more, to regard something as better than something else. This is the meaning of the word ‘prefer’, Jukka.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prefer

    Hence, not to prefer is not to value as much. Something with my logic here?

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  13. Some more questions to Jukka.

    I would also like to ask you, regarding the earlier posts by Finnj

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  14. Under pseudonym people sometimes use too strong terminology in a spotaneous situation. Which is not a nice thing to do.

    But I am not going to continue a discussion on whether some person using pseudonym X in one context is the same person as a person using same pseudonym in another context. If you are willing to discuss the issue of “is a country allowed to exclude immigrant groups who with big propability cause harm to the country” I can continue otherwise I stop the discussion.

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  15. When I’m writing this comment, Jukka still hasn’t censored his racist comments on the Suomen Sisu forum Niemel

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  16. Jussi, Thinking about the issue over night I agree with you – I have misbehaved and I am sorry for that. I have lost my right to act as any kind of expert in this issue like Finnj

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  17. Jukka, since you now say on your race blog that you want to help Africa, I would like to repeat that the best way to do this is to allow more African immigrants into Europe, USA and Australia and other developed countries. You obviously haven’t heard about remittances, so you should read the important information posted earlier by Niemel

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  18. I just noticed that Jukka has completely deleted his race blog. So you can definitely make a difference all the way from Australia! 😀

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  19. OK Jukka. We all sometimes get carried away with our emotions and make wrong decisions.

    Regarding these topics, may I recommend a fine book to you and everyone else. This is a novel “What Is the What” by Dave Eggers I recently read. It’s about being a refugee and immigrant. It’s based on a true story of a man called Valentino Achak Deng. I would say this book speaks with the voice of humanity and I sure hope as many people as possible would hear this voice and take it into their hearts.

    http://www.valentinoachakdeng.com/

    http://www.valentinoachakdeng.com/?q=witw/about

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  20. Yes, I have removed the race blog for time break based on the reasons I mentioned in the self critical comment above.

    The race blog has been all the time talking about helping Africa on the other hand and protecting Finland from unwanted immigration on the other hand. I have not changed my opinion about the double policy..

    My point is very clear about this but I have maybe not been very succesful on expressing my opinion: Any country has the right to choose the immigrants based on selfish motives. Saying “I want to minimize muslim immigration to Finland” is not based a hate towards muslims. Kansankokonaisuus blog makes this point very very clear – I willl maybe include a translation on some argumentation.

    Kansankokonaisuus is not negative about islam. It is critical about western people not admiting that there is big risk for conflict which is made even worse by too much immigration from islamic countries.

    On the other hand kansankokonaisuus is not an anti-immigration blog as such but a blog about communities in the tradion of cultural group selection and the german conservative revolution. But that is irrelevant for this discussion.

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  21. I see, so you still hold on to your personal prejudices and policy recommendations, though they are based on highly questionable science. For some reason, this comes to me as no surprise. But I still recommend “What Is the What” to you.

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  22. The following comment was posted under the wrong item by Political Beach Girl. I’m copying it over to this thread …

    ================

    [ … ] I thought you might find the statistics interesting. I have found the data staggering and still our government does nothing to stop the invasion.

    http://politicalbeachgirl.blogspot.com/2007/08/multiculturalism-and-loss-of-nation.html

    or Multiculturalism and the loss of a nation

    H/T to Pamela at Atlas Shrugs [ http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/08/i-ask-you-is-th.html ]

    ===============

    [Note from Moderator: Link corrected. Minor editing, no change in meaning of message.]

    ================

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  23. lot, you just missed my point, either on purpose, on unintentionally. It is of course impossible for a human being not to prefer something (or someone) over something else, but equality doesn’t depend on our personal preferences.

    However, in Jukka’s example, he confuses his personal preferences with complex issues concerning immigration. For instance, there are many questions involved when a decision about political asylum is made, so there must be a way to make the judgement in this case as justly as possible.

    Jukka’s example was about 20-year old males from Iraq he himself doesn’t seem to prefer for some reason or another and this kind of an overarching rejection is in my personal opinion unjust and very biased against 20-year old males from Iraq. It totally ignores the individual. Get my point?

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  24. Jussi,

    You say I am basing my recommendations on wrong science. The problem with that claim is that in reality we do not disagree in more than details what comes to IQ and correlation of IQ and criminality. Those details hardly have any impact on your or my opinions on immigration policy. I think you want to give an impression that the disagreement (on science) with me is bigger than it is.

    Finnj

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  25. Jussi,

    I agree that there is the aspect of looking at individuals. But when we are talking about big numbers of immigrants we do not always be able to look at the granularity of one individual. Take an example. IF we would be actively promoting immigration to Finland like Australia did in the sixties and seventies, we have to choose the target countries where we go and try to find immigrants.

    Also – No one is only an individual. He is also a member of some societies, ethnic groups etc. Individuals get children. In some ethic groups the children of the first generation immigrants get easily radicalized causing bad conflicts.

    When we are talking about the citizens of our country everybody has the right to be treated as an individual and not as a member of an ethnic group. That right does not – and should not – exist for people wanting to immigrate to our country. The “should not” is ofcource only my opinion and everybody has the riht to disagree.

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  26. Jukka, you write that “You say I am basing my recommendations on wrong science. The problem with that claim is that in reality we do not disagree in more than details what comes to IQ and correlation of IQ and criminality. Those details hardly have any impact on your or my opinions on immigration policy. I think you want to give an impression that the disagreement (on science) with me is bigger than it is.”

    As far as Lynn’s IQ data is concerned, our disagreement is quite severe. Lynn’s data is very suspect and Jensen and Rushton rely on that data. Read Kamin’s critique from the paper Prodos linked. Kamin has some good points about the discrepancies in Lynn’s statements. So we have to be agnostic as to the IQ data of Africa. With schooling and proper nutrition, it is possible to raise the IQ to some extent (Lynn himself admits this in a quote in the Kamin paper and Jensen writes about it in his book The g Factor). So the mean IQ of 70 Lynn has calculated from his flimsy, outdated data is probably far too low.

    In your comment you, in my opinion quite rightly, observe that the details of IQ research have no impact on our differing opinions on immigration policy. I think IQ research and the data it has so far provided are totally irrelevant regarding immigration policy, because even within the purview of national politics, you can use the data to support both leftist and rightist views. This fact is also mentioned in The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, and Steven Pinker writes about it in his book The Blank Slate.

    So I guess our political views that are based on values come first and then we use different things – like IQ research in your case and human rights in my case – to support those views.

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  27. I am not demonizing the africans. I even removed the race blog as showing a wish to compromise. Even if race blog also was not about demonizing anybody. And I have said I am very sorry about the stupid comments I made.

    But sorry I cannot change my political opinions based on common sense.

    I am not discussing this issue about demonizing anybody with you because I do not have any trust on you in the sense that you would want to know the truth. Sorry for that.

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  28. Jussi,

    On your second comment where you talk about values we seem to agree on the issue. But the image I get here is there is a mistrust for me (my moral) from your part in the same way as there is a mistrust for you from my part in the previous comment. You probably at least want to believe I am a person with bad facist values ?

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  29. Jussi: ” So we have to be agnostic as to the IQ data of Africa. With schooling and proper nutrition, it is possible to raise the IQ to some extent (Lynn himself admits this in a quote in the Kamin paper and Jensen writes about it in his book The g Factor). So the mean IQ of 70 Lynn has calculated from his flimsy, outdated data is probably far too low.”

    I repeat:

    You are saying it is not clear whether the IQ gap between african american and african african is fully due to cultural bias of some test.
    Maybe you are right. The gap may also be due to environment e.g. nutrition. That was also mentioned in the race blog as major issue. I said the gap is only partially due to genes and probably more due to nutrition. Other reasons may exist.

    But all those things are maybe not very relevant for the immigration policy discussion ? And really discussing these things in details is very unpleasent now when there is all the risk of censorship. I have difficulties in understanding which things are not allowed to be discussed. Is it really this “we are allowed to choose the immigrants on what ever basis” which may not be discussed ? Probably it can but it is the criteria themselves which cannot be discussed ? So I stop now.

    Thank you for the possibility to discuss ! Thank you for Finnj

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  30. Jukka, why on earth did you decide to delete your blog that dealt with racial differences? I think it is extremely important to discuss issues that the politically correct multiculturalist thought police wants us to forget. Your blog contained interesting information based on the results of scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals and such. I hope you have saved your archive.

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  31. For those who are not yet aware of it, Dr Leonard Peikoff has now removed the letters by Mikko Ellil

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  32. I did not deceive Leonard Peikoff in any way. I gave him all information that was available and relevant.

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  33. Good evening Mikko,

    I did not deceive Leonard Peikoff in any way. I gave him all information that was available and relevant.

    Write to Dr Peikoff and explain that to him.

    Also, ask him why he removed your two letters from his website and why he calls the views you presented in Society Consists of People obnoxious, racist, and deterministic.

    Despite what you claim is or was “relevant”, it seems Leonard Peikoff has a different view. Why is that?

    Let me know what he replies.

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